Episode Overview

On today’s episode of the Serial Startups Podcast, we are talking all about debt.  Debt is very prevelent in our society, and our guess is that you have some sort of debt.  If you do, don’t be ashamed or discouraged.  In our early twenties, we went from having no debt to over $200,000 in debt in a few short years.

In this show, we walk through a timeline of how we got into debt (and some lessons that we learned) as well as how we ended up paying off over $100,000 of that debt.

Episode Key Points

  • How we got into over $200,000 worth of debt by 23
  • The difference between good debt and bad debt
  • How buying a house and quickly escalate your debt
  • A tip to avoid salesmen selling you things you don’t need
  • The strategies that we used to pay off $100,000+ in debt
  • How going into more debt allowed us to pay off debt faster
  • Why we recommend having more taxes taken out of your paycheck
  • A free tool that can help understand and manage your finances

Episode Transcript

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Serial Startup Podcast Show 3 Transcript


Tom: This is the Serial Startups Podcast Show 3. In this episode, we’re going to discuss how we got into over $200,000 worth of debt by the time we were 21 and how we’ve been able to pay off a significant portion of this. Alright, so welcome back to the show. This is our third show and this one, regardless of whether you’re going to start up a business or not, we wanted to talk about debt just because it impacts everyone. There’s personal debt that people get into. There’s obviously debt related to business but it seems like debt is such a huge part of our society and it causes a lot of challenges for people. You know, we’re going to go into our timeline, how we got into debt, and how that impacted us, but I mean off-hand, Ariana what are some of the challenges that we’ve had as a result of having debt at a young age?

Ariana: I mean it’s a huge challenge for a lot of people just in your relationship alone. I mean most people, they say that the number one thing that people fight about is money and if you’re fighting about money all the time, that’s going to impact your relationship and it’s going to impact a lot of the choices that you make and decisions that you as a couple have to make.


Tom: Yeah, you know there are some bloggers that we talked about that have a podcast too, Marc and Lauren Groupman and we’ll link to their show in the show notes at serialstartups.co/show3 and one of the things that they said in one of their podcasts was debt doesn’t just cost you money in terms of interest, but it also costs you time and experiences. And I loved when they said that because it really does. Because if you have debt, you’re going to have to make decisions based on that. So that might be taking another job or working longer hours which means you’re going to miss out on life experiences with your partner, with your family, or with others.

Ariana: Your friends.

Tom: Yeah, this is a topic that’s near and dear to our heart because we’ve spent a long time, many years getting into debt and also figuring out what strategies work and don’t work for getting out of debt.


Ariana: Yeah, and I mean, everyone starts with zero debt after high school or maybe not after high school I guess depending on your situation. Some people might start before that. But basically, everyone starts with no debt at some point. And then because of society and the way that things are, we have to…we might have to take a credit card out for this or you know, everyone says you need a credit card because you have to start getting your credit up so you can have a good credit score so you can buy a house and buy a car but all that comes back to is you have to start putting yourself in debt.

Tom: Yeah and in show 2 we talked a little bit about why people should have multiple income streams but in that show, we also talked about how money flows. And what gets most people into debt is having that mentality of your job makes you money and then that money pays for your expenses and your liabilities and that’s it. So out of this show today, what we’re hoping to do for you guys is really pull back the curtains and show you what did that look like for us because we got into debt pretty much by accident.


Tom: Some of because of we thought we were supposed to do it that way, some of mistakes that we made, so we want to show you really what it looks like to get into debt and how easy it can happen, and then just share some of the strategies and experiences we had of getting out of it and this may be relevant to you or it may actually be relevant to your children as they get into college and as they are starting out their careers or looking at what they’re going to do beyond high school, how do they do it the right way and how do they maybe minimize some of the debt they get into?

Ariana: So to bring this back, we’re going to reference a blog that we wrote back, oh gosh I don’t know when it was, but it’s getting into debt young and how to work your way out and we went through and made an actual timeline of all of the things that put us into debt. So I’ll start that out with our first debt would be student loans which is a pretty big one for everyone these days. I know Tom had to take out student loans to go to college.


Ariana: I also had to take out student loans and I didn’t get a lot of financial aid with mine because it goes based off of the income of your parents or guardians. So my parents made too much for me to even get any financial aid so I had to take student loans out and then because I was away at school and they wanted me to be able to live independently, we actually maxed out my student loans and took out the most that we could so that I had money for gas, and money for rent when I moved out off campus and lived in a house, money for food, and then I didn’t get a job in my field and even if I had, I wouldn’t have made enough money to start paying off that debt because it was just an exuberant amount that I didn’t necessarily need.

Tom: Yeah and I think that’s a key point is, Ariana and I have had a lot of conversations about this. Your next step after high school may or may not have to be college. If you’re listening to this podcast, you’re probably interested in starting a business.


Tom: So whether it’s you or whether it’s a friend you know or maybe it’s even your children, but there are alternate paths out there and even if you end up going to college, I mean we think college is great. We both went. I ended up going…

Ariana: Great experiences and it’s a definite important life experience.

Tom: Yeah I even went back and got my masters. But the key is being intentional with why you’re going to college and understanding how much money it’s going to cost and how much is going to come back.

Ariana: I mean an example for me, I definitely would have gone to college, but did I need a four year degree in Zoology? No. I could have gone and got my associate’s degree, taken some business class, learned how to use Microsoft Word and Excel and just different things that you would need out of in the business world and I would have been perfectly fine with just those.

Tom: But why did you do that? Because people told you to follow your passion right?

Ariana: Because you get out of high school and you’re supposed to go on to college and they tell you to find something that you like doing and that’s what your major should be because you should work and do something you like. And that’s not practical.


Tom: Well it’s good advice but we’ve got to look at how much is it going to cost us to do that and then how much we’re going to make afterwards. Because if the numbers make sense and you can follow your passion, awesome. But if you’re going to spend all this money on a degree that you’re never going to use, you may want to take a step back and look at something you can actually use.

Ariana: And next on the timeline, still in college, we both took out credit cards. Tom’s reason was a little less necessary than mine. He got a credit card because it came with a free Bill’s t-shirt.

Tom: Wait. When you’re in college and you can get a free Buffalo Bill’s t-shirt to show off your team that hasn’t made the playoffs in ten years, I mean that seems like a fantastic reason to get a credit card.

Ariana: And mine, I had a vehicle that I brought to school with me, and at one point it needed some…I think it needed an inspection and of course I went and they totally upsold me into your car needs all this done and you know, you can’t drive it without this and I, being a naïve college student, totally bought into that and got a credit card because I had $800 worth of repairs that I quote on quote needed for my vehicle.


Ariana: So bam. We both had credit cards.

Tom: After college we got an apartment and then if you listened to the first podcast, we actually went and bought a house a year after that. And you know a lot of people say, this goes back to whole rich dad, poor dad mentality. A lot of people say your house is an asset but in reality, buying a house is going to cost you money, not only upfront so you’ve got closing costs and you can put your down payment in, but then to pay your monthly mortgage payment, your insurance, your taxes every month, and then all the hidden costs of maintenance, buying a lawn mower, buying all these other things that come along with actually owning a house.

Ariana: And we actually have dates on this timeline. That was March 2007 and kind of an important part of the timeline was December 2006 he proposed.


Tom: So just going with the theme, I mean we both forgot our anniversary, so we’re doing good with this whole relationship thing.

Ariana: And that was definitely not even part of the plan, we did have a five year plan in college that everyone picked on us for but the plan was to graduate, get an apartment together, and then get married because going with the financials, we knew we would have to have time but he couldn’t wait so he proposed in December 2006 and then we got the house. Because you know when you get a house, you have to go and get a dog. And I worked at our local animal shelter on Lollipop Farm so on May 2007, a couple months after we got the house, we got a dog.

Tom: And then I had been driving a car I bought in college and it was falling apart so I had to buy a new car. It was actually a used car but it was still another expense.

Ariana: Yeah had to get a bank loan.

Tom: Had to get a car loan for that. That was shortly after we moved into the house in June 2007.


Ariana: July 2007 we did the naïve first home owners thing and fell for a couple of those home improvement sales that come knocking around the neighborhood. We bought brand new windows for our house because they scared us into the whole energy saver, and you need new windows.

Tom: And not just bought new windows…we spent $15,000 to buy new windows which to be honest, our existing windows were probably perfectly okay and if we wanted to actually get them replaced, we probably could have done it for a couple thousand dollars.

Ariana: Yeah and then we also bought a new smoke alarm system which I will say out of all the purchases we made, that one at least as a safety precaution and you know, the types of smoke alarms that we bought are top of the line and then we also got the heat alarms with them. So that one at least was for our safety, but did we need to do that four months after we bought the house? Probably not.


Tom: Yeah so let’s just recap that. So we bought a $100,000 house in March, a couple months later…

Ariana: We got a couple thousand dollar car.

Tom: We got a couple thousand dollar car. A couple months later we spent nearly $20,000 on buying windows and smoke alarms for our new house that we’d only been in for a couple of months.

Ariana: Yeah and then throughout that time, in 2007 and 2008, we…it was like the seasons of weddings for us. We were invited to probably I would say six to eight weddings each summer and then we were actually in a couple of those and they were in different cities so we were travelling on top of that so you know – not to say we weren’t grateful to be a part of all those people’s special days but when you add all that stuff together, the gifts, the travelling, being in the wedding and having to buy the suits or the dresses that stuff adds up very, very quickly.

Tom: And now for the icing on the cake…

Ariana: August 2007.

Tom: Tom spends $7500 on a credit card for real estate training.


Ariana: Yeah we did not need that. We were trying to plan the wedding this whole time. We did set our date a little further off. I think we were almost two years out from when we got engaged. We knew we would need some time to one, plan it, and to two, have the financial ability to pay for it, but yeah. We didn’t need that extra $7500.

Tom: Alright. So with that, now we’re going to get into some of this debt is actually business debt. So we’re going to talk a little bit later on whether you should actually pay off your personal debt first or whether you should start a business. But we’re going to show you the path we took. So we said that we spent the money on real estate training and we decided that we’re actually going to go and make that work because we had to pay off the $7500 credit card bill somehow. So in December of 2007, that same year we bought our house, we actually bought our first rental property.

Ariana: Yep and we named that Perry Housing, because it was in Perry.

Tom: As you guys can see and you’ll probably hear in the future, I have named one company and it was this one because it was easy. And every other company has been Ariana’s creativity because she does so much better.


Ariana: You did two: Perry Housing and Sylvester Enterprises. Really creative.

Tom: Touché.

Ariana: Where he lived and his name. Anyways in May 2008, to join onto those home improvement sales and purchases, we signed up for an alarm system.

Tom: So we didn’t learn our lesson at that point.

Ariana: Nope, obviously did not learn our lesson. And I mean we do live in a suburb. There is not a whole lot of crime but you know, it is kind of a scary thought to think about what would happen if somebody broke into our house, what would we do? So they sold us on having the alarm system and this one had a monthly payment. It wasn’t a payment upfront so we were like oh, yeah. It’s not too bad. But you know, five years of $50 a month, that does come out to quite a bit. So yeah we didn’t need that one either.

Tom: And let me just take a step back at this point. Anyone that comes to your house or anyone that has a deal that sounds too good to be true, one, it probably is, two, these guys and whether it’s a real estate trainer, whether it’s some guru, whether it’s someone coming to your house to sell you something, they are experts in sales.


Tom: So they’re going to do all the strategies that are going to psychologically get you there. So like Ariana just talked about, it’s a little bit scary and they’re going to sell you on why you have to have an alarm system or why you have to do some of these things. The point is, they know what they’re doing and if something sounds like a good deal, my recommendation is take two days and think about it. They’re going to tell you that this offer expires and you’re not going to be able to get it outside of that day, but if it’s truly a good thing, after two days, it’s still going to be a good thing. They’re still going to offer you that deal, otherwise it wasn’t a good deal to start with, and it’s going to save you a lot of money just by thinking that way and actually taking some time before you start spending money on these things.

Ariana: Yep, so the next one on our list is pretty big. September 2008 we finally got married and went on our honeymoon. And although this is a great, great day, it was one of the best days of our lives, we probably spent more than we needed to which is in retrospect actually a lot less than everybody else spends.


Ariana: I think total with the honeymoon included we spent about $12,000 on our wedding which is pretty low.

Tom: That’s it?

Ariana: Yeah that was it. That’s all we spent.

Tom: Wow you are impressive.

Ariana: I was a super budgeting queen. I was DIY before Pinterest was around. So you know, it was a low amount but unfortunately we did pay for that ourselves so that was just more debt that we got into.

Tom: Yeah so then from there we ended up continuing in purchasing real estate which once again this is debt that we took on but it was business debt and it actually was good debt because it starting bringing us in money. So in October 2008, our second real estate business bought its first rental property and then over the next few years, we just continued to buy various rental properties, mostly residential but then we even got into some commercial real estate as well.


Ariana: Yeah and I think our number is…oh I just counted the other day. If you’re counting units, I think we have 23 units. But then we have eight duplexes, one house, and one commercial building so it all splits out. And February 2012, the next best day of our lives, we had our first child Alaina which we were able to keep our expenses pretty low for having a child because I did stay home so I mean pretty much with that, it was just diapers and diapers and wipes. I did breastfeeding so that was free. We didn’t have childcare expenses so it wasn’t too bad. And everyone was crazy buying kids clothes and stuff and so we did not buy a lot as well for having a baby which is kind of impressive.

Tom: And this goes back to what we had done during that time and we realized we got into all this debt, was we starting to talk about some of our goals and some of our plans, and when we had Alaina, you were actually able to leave your job. So I think that’s a great point as we go through this timeline really showing how we made some bad mistakes and then we started to realize that that wasn’t the path we wanted to go down.


Tom: We switched things up, that was our first major goal obviously it was great to have our first child but also great to have you staying home and replace your income with the business income.

Ariana: And then I mean the year of 2012 was kind of a crazy year because Tom had the idea of opening a wine and liquor store and to start off I kind of…I wasn’t sure how we were going to do that or if it was even going to happen because with New York State you have to apply for the liquor license before you can do anything and that was very long, I think like a six month process but in the meantime he was really serious, he said this is a long term retirement plan, let’s do it and we’re going to do it right. So within the, what is it, six, seven months, November 2012, he got approved for the license in I think October and we had been planning that whole summer, even just after having a baby, we had been planning that whole summer and doing the business plans and building everything out and we opened Warsaw Wine and Spirits in November 2012.


Ariana: And that was a very crazy time for us because Tom was working full time so guess who worked the store the whole first week we were open with a child? Yep, that would be me. Alaina was what? Nine months old.

Tom: I was going to say we have a picture of Elena actually sitting on wine racks.

Ariana: Oh, we have lots of pictures of Elena with me being at the store, sitting at the store.

Tom: We’ll put some of those up on the show notes which you can find at Show 3. But yeah parents of the year.

Ariana: Yeah, raising your child at a liquor store, that was us. But lucky for us, we were able to find a great employee; she works full time so after that first week, she worked full time Monday through Friday at the business. So I only had to be there that first week every day. Tom was working the late shift after work.


Ariana: So that first week was insane. But after that, we were able to find a great group of employees to run the store and I only had to travel there every once in a while.

Tom: Alright, so let me ask a question. So we have this real estate business, we have this liquor store – how often are you actually working at the liquor store?

Ariana: Now I go down once or twice a month.

Tom: Okay. So you don’t work in the liquor store?

Ariana: No I don’t work there.

Tom: Oh.

Ariana: Isn’t that funny?

Tom: Do I work there?

Ariana: No. That has to be the number one most asked question when we tell people we own a wine and liquor store. Oh so do you work there? No, we don’t work there.

Tom: So we actually have an episode coming up in the future where we’re actually going to walk through our liquor store business and how that works.

Ariana: The process of opening it.

Tom: But the key thing here that I want to call out is part of building these businesses doesn’t mean that there’s going to take our time away in the future. As we build more income, that first like leading up to that first week, we spent a ton of time. I would work my full time job.


Tom: Ariana would go to the store with Elena and then I would leave my full time job, go work at the liquor store at 9 o’clock at night, and then finally get home and do that again. So it’s going to take some sacrifice to get our businesses going but the light at the end of the tunnel like we have now, we have employees that work at the store and then we spend a little bit of time just managing and overseeing it.

Ariana: And we have all of our processes written out. We’ll dive into how we did that and we’ll probably include a .pdf of how we’ve processed out those tasks that we have to do at the store and all that sort of stuff.

Tom: So over the next couple years we just kept taking the income that we made from the businesses, income from our…or my day job, and just kept putting those back into the businesses to pay off like we had paid off our personal debt but then being able to knock down some of that business debt too because as we knocked that down, that means that the income coming from those businesses just continues to increase.


Ariana: And then most recently, June 2015, we had our second child Ty and we are pretty close I think to completely out of debt although it’s kind of an evolving.

Tom: But a lot of our debt now is our business debt.

Ariana: Yeah it’s evolving because we keep putting money into the business and then we’re paying it back off so it’s good debt.

Tom: Yeah exactly and that’s a great point. There’s definitely good debt and bad debt and a quick definition of that, your bad debt is your debt that costs you money and your good debt is your debt that makes you money. So when we invest money into our businesses our when we’re buying equipment or whatever it is, if we spend a dollar, we’re going to get more than a dollar back which means that debt was a good thing to have. Alright, so that actually leads into the first point that I want to get into which is sometimes you have to actually take on debt to pay off debt. So what I mean by that is when we got to like our peak of our personal debt, there were really two routes we could have gone. One was really to cut back expenses, try to make more money at our jobs, and just pay that off.


Tom: And some people go that route and are very successful. The other option is to look for ways to bring in more income so that we could pay that off faster. And that was actually the route we went. We ended up starting our businesses so that we could bring in more income to be able to pay that off. So that meant that we actually put some of our money instead of paying off debt, we had to put it into a business and then we actually had to take on a mortgage to buy a rental property but then that rental property would give us cash flow and reduce our taxes so that we could take that money and put it onto the personal debt that we had.

Ariana: Well that takes us sort of into our debt snowball which I will let Tom explain.

Tom: So this is a concept that I believe Dave Ramsay has popularized. I don’t know if he came up with it but essentially the concept here is if you take all your debt out, you’re going to organize it by what is the highest interest rate.


Tom: So let’s keep it simple. Let’s say you had two credit cards, one had a 20% interest rate and one had a 10% interest rate. What you’re going to do is you’re going to focus all of your extra income to paying off the 20% interest rate credit card and then once that’s paid off, you’re going to take the money that you were paying onto that credit card and then put that onto the 10% credit card in addition to what you were already paying on that. So that means you’re going to be able to pay down that second credit card faster than you did the first and now if you have a third credit card or a fourth, you just keep doing that and over time you’re able to pay those credit cards or whatever debt that is off faster because you’re taking more money and just snowballing it into the next one.

Ariana: And we’ve done this. This is something that we practiced. We took all of our cards and we wrote everything down and we sat down and did goal planning. Okay, let’s figure out what income we have coming in every month, let’s figure out what we’re putting on onto all the cards, let’s figure out the excess that we have left over, and let’s figure out which card we’re going to start to pay down first. So we’ve done that and you know, we would take our yearly goals and go through our debt snowball.


Ariana: Okay, we paid off this card, now we’re putting all the income onto this card, after that we’re going to skip over to this card, and so on and so forth. So that really helped us with our plan to eventually pay down debt. The other thing that we want to talk about is cutting out unnecessary expenses. Now,  this means different things to everybody because it’s all in what’s necessary for you. For us, one of the big ways that we cut out expenses, we do not buy presents for each other. We don’t do Christmas presents. We don’t do anniversary presents. We don’t do birthday presents. We would rather use that money to get us to a better place in our life and we just…we try to take the happy times that we have and just celebrate those instead of going out and spending a lot of money doing stuff. I mean we do out do dinner occasionally. We’ll go out to a movie or we’ll do something to stay in but it’s something special for us. But we really try not to spend any unnecessary money on ourselves because that’s just something that we don’t feel we need.


Ariana: It’s a sacrifice we’re willing to make at this time. Yes, at some point in the future we would love to be able to start buying gifts again for each other but we’d rather spend our time and money in other places. Another way we cut out expenses was getting rid of cable. We have Netflix, we have Hulu, we do other things for entertainment. We felt that cable was just not necessary. We were wasting a lot of time and definitely wasting a lot of money there because you pay for cable and we don’t want a large majority of the channels and most people only have cable so that they have DVR so that they can watch the shows that they don’t have time to sit down and watch. So, those were a couple ways that we’ve gotten rid of unnecessary expenses. We don’t go out to eat a lot. We don’t spend a lot of money on ourselves in general. We don’t go shopping. Typically the only thing I shop for is the kids.


Tom: Yeah, and this isn’t to say that you have to your spouse and say, hey we’re not going to buy gifts anymore.

Ariana: No, don’t do that. That works for us but we suggest you find a way for you to go out and try to cut some unnecessary expenses.

Tom: Yeah, because the key thing is we all think we need things but if you really sit back and look at how much money do you spend each month? Like we’ve gone through in detail about how much comes in each month, how much goes out each month, and are there things we can cut back? And that’s where we figured out we can cut back on things like cable and some of these other nice-to-haves but not need-to-haves, and the sacrifice in the past and now will then allow us to do bigger and better things in the future. So what you have to look for and what we coach our clients on is take a look at all of the time you spend, take a look at all of the money you spend, and see where you can cut some of that out, to get both time and money back because that’s what’s going to allow you to start your business and end up building more time and more money. So if you’re interested in learning more about that and kind of getting our step by step guide, head over to serialstartups.co and then click on the Startups Academy and that is the course and membership site where we have all of our content and then us guiding people on how to get on some of that and then actually start their first or additional income stream.


Tom: So with that, the final tip that we like to talk to people about is, you’re working so hard to make your money, make sure that you’re actually keeping as much of it as you can. So if you own a business, you can get quite a few tax deductions. If you haven’t started a business yet, you can still get some deductions for donations you make, your interest mortgage, your student loans…

Ariana: Having kids.

Tom: Yep, but far too many people end up missing out on a lot of that money because they don’t file their taxes right or they try to do it themselves. So I mean our accountant I think he charges us $100 or something.

Ariana: $150 I think.


Tom: Yep, but even going to like H&R Block or some of these places, they’re going to make sure that you’re getting these deductions which means that you keep more of the money without having to really do anything else. The other thing is not only keeping more of that money, but a lot of people try to minimize how much money the government is holding for them and which ultimately minimizes how much they get back at the end of the year. But one of the biggest things that helps us pay off debt if you can have more taxes taken off your paychecks, at the end of the year, you’re going to get a return and that return may be a thousand dollars, two thousand dollars, or more, and when you get that big chunk of money, you can then pay down a significant portion of debt. A lot of people go back and say; well I don’t want the government holding my money. I’d rather have that money now rather than later but the reality is, if you get an extra $5 per paycheck or whatever it is, you’re probably going to spend it. But if you get that big return at the end of the year, now you can have a much bigger impact and you’re not just going to spend it here or there on extra McDonalds or something else.


Ariana: Yeah, I know it’s hard for a lot of people to consistently save on a week to week or month to month basis. You know, some people are successful with it with the jar or I know I’ve seen some of those plans where you save a certain amount per day for 30 days and then you have this big chunk at the end, but a lot of people don’t have the willpower to do that consistently. So you know, tax returns is definitely one way that you can kind of save yourself the trouble and the time by filing correctly so that you get that big return and you can do something significant with it.

Tom: Absolutely. So we went through a lot of stuff here but we want to leave you with our final tip of the week and I’ll let Ariana go through with that.

Ariana: Yeah, we recently I think last year started using Mint.com which I don’t know why it took us so long to use it but it’s really helped us get a big picture view of our spending monthly. It allows you to sign in and then you sign in to each of your accounts, your bank accounts, your credit cards, your 401ks, your mortgage.


Ariana: Any kind of account that you have that has an online login and it’s a financial account, you can log in through Mint and it will automatically update so it gives you as your transactions are coming in, they’re showing up on Mint, you have the option to create budgets for yourselves; shopping budget, a grocery budget, a gas budget, dining out, it will tell you your medical expenses. It splits everything out by category and you can go in and obviously edit if you need to if it doesn’t pick the categories correctly. It shows you…it will give you warnings for when your payments are due, it will give you warnings for when your budget is close to goes over what you set for yourself per month. So it’s a really good tool for anybody and everybody to use but especially if you’re trying to pay down that debt and get to a better spot financially.


Tom: Yeah and if you haven’t started a business  yet, this is going to give you some good discipline of looking at how much money comes in, how much goes out, and what some of your targets are because one of the key pieces of running a business is making sure that you have cash flow. And that means that the end of the month, after all of your expenses are paid, you’ve got money left over. And if you can start by doing that discipline with your personal finances, you’re going to have much more success when you start your first business by being able to do that.

Ariana: Yep. So if you missed any of our mentions or you want to see some of the links, head over to the show notes page serialstartups.co/show3. That is our show for this week I think. Thank you guys for listening again. And we’ll see you again next week.

Tom: Alright, see you guys.

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